Thursday, July 06, 2006



Was it worth it?

Writing in Salon, Nir Rosen asks the big question: did the invasion make things worse in Iraq? His answer is not exactly encouraging:

Those spared Saddam's prisons and executioners may be better off, though they have not been spared the American prisons, or attacks, or the resistance's bombs, or the death squads of the civil war. The Kurds are certainly better off, on their way to independence, benefiting from their relative stability and improved economy. The rest of Iraq? In many ways, things are worse. Under Saddam the violence came from one source, the regime. Now it has been democratically distributed. Death can come from anywhere, at all times, no matter who you are. You can be killed for crossing the street, for going to the market, for driving your car, for having the wrong name, for being in your house, for being a Sunni, for being a Shia, for being a woman. The American military can kill you in an operation, you can be arrested by militias and disappear in Iraq's new secret prisons, now run by Shias, or you can be kidnapped by the resistance, or by criminal gangs.

Americans cannot simply observe the horror of Iraq and shake their heads in wonder, as if it were Rwanda and they had no role. America is responsible for the new chaos in Iraq, which began following the invasion and the botched and brutal occupation. Iraq's people continue to suffer under the American occupation and civil war, just as they did under the American-imposed sanctions and bombings before the war, and just as they did under the years of dictatorship. Once more they are mere victims of powers they cannot control. Saddam is out and the Americans are in, but Iraq is still a republic of fear.

For those who supported the war on the basis that it would topple a brutal dictator from power and thereby improve the lot of the Iraqi people, this can only be regarded as one thing: a failure.

14 comments:

> can only be regarded as one thing: a failure.

1) Only if you are one of those who consider doing nothing a sure way to avoid failure. Sanctions were a failure, being Iraq’s “friend” was a failure, and fighting a war against Iraq was a failure in that sense.

2) Also I think the US suffers from excessive expectations.
If the US has modest expectations (for example not setting up a democracy not worrying too much about bringing Sadam's men to justice etc) they could have maintained stability (if stability is what we want). But they did decide to follow these potentially worthy goals and as they added each additional goal they increased the number of people who needed to die to achieve it.

Posted by Genius : 7/06/2006 07:26:00 AM

I think we are ALL missing the point. The point of the iraq war wasnt "spreading freedom" or "saving people from a brutal dictator" or "stopping saddams lethal WMD's" or any of the other BS reasons that we have been given.

It was and remains to this day an exercise in bringing to life a free marketeers wet dream. It was about gaining economic control and opening up a foriegn market (under the most profit and tax friendly situations)to multinational companies.

As the "Project for the New American Century" states it is all about millitary, cultural and economic dominance.

Its important that we dont forget these aspects when discussing Iraq or we will continue to fall short in our understanding of the situation. regardless off which side of the fence we are on.

fraser

Posted by Anonymous : 7/06/2006 09:13:00 AM

You call it a failure - the left just seem to love people who rape, murder and butcher their own citizens and then call the US a war criminal for trying to remedy the problem.

Iraq was about to go down the gurgler before the war.

The UN was up to it's neck in corruption and payoffs for the Oil for food programme.

Nearly everybody but the ruling Iraqi elite were on meagre handouts.

The only people now trying to spread misery amoung the Iraqi people are the people who were in power during Saddam's rule and foreign fighters who seem to get there jollies by murdering Iraqi civilians.

The left's answer for everything is cut and run.

Posted by Anonymous : 7/06/2006 11:23:00 AM

You call it a failure - the left just seem to love people who rape, murder and butcher their own citizens and then call the US a war criminal for trying to remedy the problem.

Anonymous, you might want to check the news from Iraq. There's been a bit going on there.

Cheers,
RB

Posted by Russell Brown : 7/06/2006 11:47:00 AM

I'm not that keen to debate "whether it was worth it" since it's all a bit glib and easy from NZ.

But isn't it a bit glib to refuse to debate it? Because the signs are that the price has been extraordinarily high, in so many ways.

Iraqis were living under the grind of dictatorship, and had suffered huge historical loss of life as a result of Saddam's war adventuring and direct retaliation against some groups. But millions of them had jobs and lives and (women included) educational opportunities. I gather that schools and universities are now effectively unoperational, and even if and when their activities are restored it seems a certainty that the rights of women will be sharply curbed.

Meanwhile, the civilian death toll of tens of thousands mounts daily and Iraq now experiences a degree of sectarian bloodshed (committed by both Shia and Sunni mobs) that people there inist is unprecedented. Security, by the account of the US Embassy itself, has descended to the level of neighbourhood viglante groups.

The price in money? Well over a trillion dollars in the end. Consider how that astounding sum of money might have been better spent in the region. And count the billions unaccountably lost to corruption in the first year of the occupation; a sum orders of magnitude greater than the kickbacks paid to a couple of UN officials.

Then count the cost to the moral authority of the US. And consider that "winning" probably amounts to a hardline Shia government with strong ties to Iraq, applying Islamic law.

Would even the most zealous neocon choose again to do this, knowing that all this would happen? I somehow doubt it.

Cheers,
RB

Posted by Russell Brown : 7/06/2006 12:06:00 PM

anon - "the left just seem to love people who rape, murder and butcher their own citizens and then call the US a war criminal for trying to remedy the problem."

what a load of crap!

1, Just because people were against the war doesnt mean they are pro saddam. It just means that they saw the approach being put forward by washington as seriously flawed. and lo, it was and still is... seriously flawed.

the world is not so black and white so just drop the whole "the left wanted to let saddam continue" thing.

2, as for calling the US a war criminal. well, in this case they are. Dont make the mistake of thinking that the US were in this for some sort of humanitarian reason.

fraser

Posted by Anonymous : 7/06/2006 12:26:00 PM

RB, clearly I am willing to debate it i was trying to suggest that to do so from the safety of not being there is uncomfotable, to put it mildly.

All of what you say is true, but there's still a need to consider the price of Saddam remaining in power and having his regime end in the way that Yugoslavia disintergated. You ask if those supporting the war would do so knowinig what has happened, but would those that opposed the war want to see a repeat of Melosevic's end? I don't have any simple answers myself.

Posted by Anonymous : 7/06/2006 12:52:00 PM

But you still haven't come up with a solution have you - you can complain about it but do nothing.

You have no solutions or answers to the problem, do you? The only policy you have is cut and run and hand the country over to thugs and criminals.

They can then go about and continue on as they have over the last three years.

Might make Combodia look like a nice vacation spot.

That's why I suggest you take a good hard look at yourself.

If you not willing to stand up against dictator and tryants then who will stop them - nobody.

Most people doing the killing in Iraq are Saddam loyalists or foriegn jihadists, not the US troops.

Posted by Anonymous : 7/06/2006 06:38:00 PM

anon - "The only policy you have is cut and run and hand the country over to thugs and criminals."

Isnt that what you are doing by being an apologist for the US lead occupation?

let me see? um.. opening up the door to secterian violence (a debatable point as this could have happened after the abscence of Saddam regardless), laying off thousands of Iraq's workers (thats workers, NOT soldiers), refusing to give redevelopment $$ to local companies to keep said workers employed and giving the $$ to foriegn companies, shutting down and dismantling local industry in the process (purely because it was state owned and didnt fit into the free market ideal), riding roughshod over international law, claiming a moral highground while running a vast torture program. setting up a puppet government to bypass international law and sell the country off to the highest bidder, creating a web of lies and deciet to get public support, i could keep going.

And these are answers to you?

does it not matter to you that you have been sold a bunch of lies? or that the situation is still getting worse because of what has happened (so yes given time it could well make cambodia look like a holiday)? or how about the fact that billions of $$ has been given straight back to bush's buddies in non competitive tenders? or how about Irag being on the table for invasion well before 9/11 because the chicken hawks were persuing a plan of millitary, economic and cultural dominance?

Have you stopped to consider the fact that it took Iraq 3 months to get things back up and running after the first gulf war and after the second one this still hasnt happend?

does all of this cease to matter because "were standing up to a tyrant"? please.

This isnt standing up to a dictator or tyrant, this is just taking over their game by force.

and you still confuse disagreement with the US policy as somehow being in favour of letting saddam continue. nice side step of actually having to acknowledge what people are saying

Heres an answer. actually give a shit about the people and actually put the redevelopment money back into the country. stop ripping the place off.

and please sign a name.

fraser

Posted by Anonymous : 7/07/2006 08:40:00 AM

There's still a good reason for supporting the initial idea of invasion, even if it has turned into an epic failure. Actually there were two good reasons and their names were Uday and Qusay.

Posted by Anonymous : 7/07/2006 10:13:00 AM

Still no answer - you fake outrage is so laughable.

I see no outrage from you guys about this little story 'In nearby Beit Lahiya, Palestinians fired at a car carrying a crew from the Arabic satellite TV channel Al-Jazeera, wounding two people, said Wael Dahdouh, one of the reporters in the car. The gunmen apparently thought the reporters were Israeli undercover agents, he said'.

If it was Israel troops you guys would be screaming for blood and retribution.

Posted by Anonymous : 7/07/2006 10:58:00 AM

anon

still avoiding the questions put to you.

your avoidance is laughable.

why are you unable to even attempt to answer the questions i have asked? come on, answer the questions - i dare you

(that is, If you are the same anon from further up the comments thread - hence the request for you to at least sign a name. hell even a fake one would do)

fraser

Posted by Anonymous : 7/07/2006 11:06:00 AM

anon

still avoiding the questions put to you.

your avoidance is laughable.

why are you unable to even attempt to answer the questions i have asked? come on, answer the questions - i dare you

(that is, If you are the same anon from further up the comments thread - hence the request for you to at least sign a name. hell even a fake one would do)

fraser

ps:apologies if this is posted twice - experienced a bit of a glitch

Posted by Anonymous : 7/07/2006 11:33:00 AM

Neil, you are being so touchingly (I assume willfully) naiive.. "oh, well perhaps the war was a bit of a mistake.. mmm what could we have learned..?"
Well, a reasonable starting point for lessons learned would be to look back over several decades of US foreign policy to discern the pattern is generally the same every time.
As MikeyBill nailed it above, the invariable pattern is to support tyrants and ignore their predations for precisely so long as US financial or political advantage is served, then demonise them in the name of holy morals and invoke massive fiery retribution upon their populations (often by aerial bombardment). (and no, for the record, the other major powers are not vastly better in the self-interest stakes).
This time the talking points are all about democracy, tyrant, blah, blah.. in the past we had containing the threat of nasty communism. It's a stupid and meaningless conversation to be having.
If an individual repeatedly exhibits exactly the same destructive pattern in slightly different circumstances again and again, you stop focussing on the circumstances and start focussing on the pattern, if you hope to effect any change. Continuing to focus on the specific circumstance around the latest behaviour is a futile waste of energy.
The same applies to nations states and this one in particular.
Today several of the 'stan's are friends of the US.. they host military bases and do what is asked. In a few short years when their utility value is served, they'll be discovered to be in need of a good economic-sanction cleansing, or perhaps a good bombing. Will their tyrants have become any more tyranical? Unlikely.. they'll be the same dickheads they also were, but their utility value will have changed.
Stop pretending this war had anything to do with democracy.. that conversation didn't even exist until WMDs failed to materialse and new excuse was needed.

The right still steadfastly refuses to acknowledge this mindnumbingly repetitive idiotic cycle of faux-morality.
But perhaps it's time the left stopped harping on about this latest specific disaster and focussed instead on the message around the bigger timeline.

"A dictatorship has ended and a democracy established but sectarian violence continues." A relatively stable secular autocracy governed by a dictator who was a complete prick but did manage to mould some relative stability from difficult social groups, has been turned into a chaotic cesspit of unimaginable daily violence, overseen by a nominally democratic government who can't even protect their own ministers from assassination, let alone govern. If you want play happy games with the rose tinted glasses looking for the positives in this, please be my guest. However if there's anything we should avoid from the comfort and safety of NZ as far as I'm concerned, it's engaging in quaint happy rationalisations rather than looking at the vast economic and human costs and calling the exercise for the huge f*ck-up it was and is. And then we should be saying 'never again'.

Posted by Anonymous : 7/07/2006 01:38:00 PM